But no one asked you. Back to bed for you.

This is neither true nor relevant. According to his Department of Education bio, Arne Duncan is married to a woman named Karen and has two children. There are also plenty of gay people for which marriage equality with heterosexuals is a low priority.

well, some folks are against gay marriage...and you might be surprised what groups are against it.

the black churches are very anti-gay, they stand united against any gay civil rights.....as do the catholics. both of these are heavily if not all democrat.

you wont hear obama say he supports gay marriage....oh, until after the election.

Sarah...Agree entirely. It's no one's business other than the 2 parties agreeing to marriage or civil union. Just quit asking (or demanding) that the rest of us celebrate "gayness" with you.

Moderate,

Just quit asking (or demanding) that the rest of us celebrate "gayness" with you.

I highly doubt you've been sent any kind of engraved invitation or been court ordered to celebrate "gayness". No wants to celebrate anything, they just want to be granted civil rights.

Keck,

the black churches are very anti-gay, they stand united against any gay civil rights.....as do the catholics. both of these are heavily if not all democrat.

As I said, I've heard religious arguments. They're moot. Religion has no standing in our legal system.

Man and Woman = normal by design, and it seems to work well in making kids !

Same Gender = bodily parts dont fit...totally abnormal. For some reason, it doesn't and can't make kids.

There's a difference in Lust and Love !

okay sara, you tell them they are "bad democrats" for having belief in god.

well, some folks are against gay marriage

My suggestion, don't marry someone of the same gender then.

.....as do the catholics

Are you speaking of the "Church" or the adherents? Because the majority of the adherents, at least in the US, are in favor of recognizing the equality of homosexuals.

Sarah....GAYNESS is being forced upon the entire country by the courts and by the Liberal left. As I said, I have no issue with your sexual preference, but when was the last time you encountered a Gay Pride Celebration or parade unexpectedly with your Grandchildren??? Been to a STRAIGHT PRIDE rally lately??? I doubt it... we tend to just mind our own damned business, contrary to all the gay-bashing claims.

Holub, there is mass homosexuality in nature. We are not the exception. Why do we have to create rules to exclude people from certain benefits, such as being in the ER with your partner? If you don't like it, don't do it.

Keck, using your belief in god to morally promote yourself is just as ignorant regardless of your political affiliation, and any other attribute for that matter.

@Keck - who cares who is against it? Who gets decide "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for minorities?

Moderate, when was the last time you saw a gay nativity scene at your citi building during christmas? Religion is being forced upon the entire country by religious zealots who want to push their moral superiority on us. Way to hold a double standard when you say "I have no issue with your sexual preference, but...." I would surmise that if the gay community had equal rights, you would see less demonstrating by them to gain equal rights.

chris...it's not what i believe...but what the voters, the democrat voters believe.

i am not "for" or "against" gay marriage.....but catholics and black christians have serious hang ups about gay stuff.....and it could cost obama votes this nov.

...chris, dont be so ignorant about your own ignorance in reading skills....and try not to insult others for pointing out things you are blind to....okay ?

Keck,

I never said they were bad Democrats. I said religion has no standing in our legal system, and it doesn't. End of story.

Moderate,

If you don't like "gayness" don't go to the freaking parade. There are all types of parades, fairs, and celebrations that are a pain in my butt and cause traffic jams. I'm not yelling about "blues musicians" or "Victorians" being shoved down my throat, I just don't go and deal with the congestion as one of life's things.

Perhaps they're celebrating those things out in the open, because for the most part they've been persecuted and are STILL fighting for equal rights. So, just because YOU, PERSONALLY, don't want it in your face, they can't hold their parades? Get over yourself. Turn your freaking head then.

Stop whining.

Holub,

Really? So because they can't make babies together they shouldn't get married? Well then neither should heterosexuals who are infertile, or who don't want children.

And, abnormal is subjective.

Chris, there are many things in nature that is not the nature of man just as animals are not intended to be furry copies of people. I don't see Keck's statement as being any self promotion either. Christians believe what is written in the Bible and yes, it does speak against homosexuality. My own church has Democrats that believe this also. It's as I've said all along that there are different degrees in each party, everyone is not one and the same as the next as so many post here.

Sara- "As I said, I've heard religious arguments. They're moot. Religion has no standing in our legal system."

That's obviously a point of contention. I have no doubt you believe that with all your heart. I believe it is a part of our founding and continues to be necessary as strongly as you do not believe this. That's why we have elections. I am not angry or hate you because you don't agree but will probably be voting opposite you on many issues.

Really so you say an adult should be able to do what ever they want.

Curt,

First, thank you for being reasonable and polite...

Being part of our Founding Father's personal lives, and being part of how our Founding Father's wanted our nation to be ran, are two very different things...

James Madison...

"Strongly guarded is the separation of religion and government in the Consitution."

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Ben Franklin...

"I have found Christian dogma to be unintelligible."

Thomas Jefferson...

"I contemplate with solemn reverance the act of the American people which declared that their legislature 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

And, my personal favorite, from the Treaty of Tripoli, written by John Adams, and ratified by congress...

"The United States was, in no sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Finally, not that you brought it up, Curt, but I'm sure someone will...

And don't even give me that 10th Amendment, Mike Huckabee, crap. The 14th amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states. Ergo, the 1st amendment to the states. Argument that the 10th gives the states the right to name a religion would of been valid in, oh 1860 or earlier. In fact, the 14th basically makes the 10th almost null and void. An issue regarding the 10th hasn't even come before SCOTUS since the '60's when they tried to use it to stop desegregation

Really so you say an adult should be able to do what ever they want.

As long as they're doing it with consenting, adults, with recognized informed capacity, under the law. Sure.

Who are you to tell anyone about what OTHER people believe?

And of course no political candidate will intentionally upset any group of voters. That's just stupid. Do you honestly believe that the president is the first political candidate to do that? Are you saying that republicans don't do this?

It is convenient that you hide behind other peoples opinions rather than your own.

sara, do you think it's up to the government to make sure gays are accepted.....even with the christians ?

...should the government force christians to accept what their belief tells them is wrong ?

is their religious freedom not an issue ?

Keck,

Again, how is anyone being forced to do anything? How does allowing gay people to be married, infringe on someone's right to religious freedom?

Perhaps you're confusing marriage with holy matrimony. You know, people can be married without ever stepping foot in a church. THAT'S what gay people are fighting for. Not some sort of dogma or sacrament held within an organized religion. That doesn't come with any benefits, unlike the legal contract that is marriage.

So please, explain to me how two people entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's freedom of religion?

No one is trying to force their beliefs or lifestyles on you. In fact, the complete opposite is true.

WE don't use gay relationships as an issue in politics, the right does. We advocate for NOT using them, NOT caring, NOT legislating based on sexual orientation. As in treating them the same as straight people.

In order to stop us from doing that. In order to stop us from repealing laws that SPECIFICALLY make an issue out of being gay or not, the right uses they're Bibles, morals, and religions. When, quite clearly, in our nation, those things have no standing.

It was the right that legislated homosexuality. DADT, DOMA, sodomy laws... It is the right that's fighting to keep legislating homosexuality. They need to stop using it as a political issue, and we will then cease to say anything about their methods and how they go about using them or defending them.

Curt, I did not take Keck's statement as self promotion, rather third party self promotion of these alleged democratic blacks who dislike gays. I question as to why it is necessary for Keck to tell us how other people feel, but my sentiment is the same regardless of who had those feelings.

Humans come from the same nature that the animal kingdom is from. Therefore we are also subject to the same variances in our genetic makeup that make us all who we are. What does the bible teach about tolrerance and acceptance of others?

no sara, i am not talking about "holy matrimony"....i am talking about religious beliefs being pushed aside....to make room for what most christians believe to be a deadly sin.

...is this what the christians call the "gay agenda" ?

look, i want a govt that does not force anything on me....but this wont happen, yes ?
.

it's like going to disney world with your young children....that have been exited all year to go see mickey mouse.....and you get there, and it's "gay weekend"....you all ready paid for the tickets and you and your young children are forced to see men kissing men...and women kissing women. you have to explain this to your young children.
(this is what i am talking about. some christians wont want to be forced into accepting gays....they never will....just like you wont be forced into accepting religion sara...and i doubt you never will, does that make you a 'bad' person for not wanting the religious agenda 'forced' on you ?

Keck, It is the governments job to tell Christians that they are not the only kids on the playground, and that the playground dows not belong to the kids. You can have your religion, and even not allow anyone that you want to keep out of it. What you cannot do is extend your morality into the government as the ONLY moral authority. This is called separation of church and state.

You want to give government benefits to married people, then all couples who want to make that commitment get it.

You want to teach religion in school, then all religions get taught in school.

You want to display religious symbols on public property during the winter solstice, then all religious symbols are invited.

This is how you do not disenfranchise and discriminate. Of course the religious dont like it. It's fair.

it's like going to disney world with your young children....that have been exited all year to go see mickey mouse.....and you get there, and it's "gay weekend"....you all ready paid for the tickets and you and your young children are forced to see men kissing men...and women kissing women. you have to explain this to your young children.

Um, how does gay rights have ANY impact upon what a company decides to do regarding themed/promotional weekends? Gay marriage will have ZERO impact upon Disney, except that now weddings hosted there can be officiated (the currently have gay ceremonies, even if they are not legally binding).

Keck,

You didn't answer the question...

So please, explain to me how two people entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's freedom of religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

They're religious beliefs CAN'T be pushed aside by the government, because they already ARE pushed aside by the government, just like the government is pushed aside by the religions. Neither has any standing within the other.

Keck, and yet, I have recieved more solicitations on a weekly basis from religious groups, then the number of times that I have ever seen gays kissing in public in the course of any 5 year period in my life. Perhaps you need to teach your children that these things happen in society, and they need to understand that it is a part of the real world. Not to like it, but understand it, be aware of it, and your beliefs. If you truly want to be islolated from the world, then go live on an island. The rest of the world does not have to live around you.

Chris,

I know, right??? Where's the outrage when we have Gospel Festivels? I put up their religious music getting shoved down my throat once a year, and yet when gay people have their parades, it's the end of the world???

chris. christians are not the only religion that does not accept homosexuality.

...in islam it is against allah to be gay....and they kill them for being homosexual

...i dont know what jews think about homosexuals....but i have never seen a gay rabbi...have you ?

i guess my biggest problem is how the democrats are hypocritical of republicans over this issue....when clearly the black church is anti-gay, and catholics are anti-gay as well....and these two groups are 100% democrat voters.

this means that obama is not supporting gay marriage because if he does...then it will cost him votes from these two democrat groups.

..a form of discrimination sanctioned by obama himself....for votes. yes ?

sara, if you are belonging to a religion that thinks eating beef is a sin against god. and you are forbidden from it

.....then the govt forces you to eat beef, or else get charged with a hate crime or something.

is this fair ?

I have recieved more solicitations on a weekly basis from religious groups, then the number of times that I have ever seen gays kissing in public in the course of any 5 year period in my life.

Agreed, and I lived in San Francisco for much of my life!

i guess my biggest problem is how the democrats are hypocritical of republicans over this issue....when clearly the black church is anti-gay, and catholics are anti-gay as well....and these two groups are 100% democrat voters

First off, nothing is 100% anything. That's a generalization. They lean one way or the other, but you can not say, with ANY certainty that every, single, black Christian and every, single Catholic, in the entire country are Democratic Party voters.

christians are not the only religion that does not accept homosexuality.

...in islam it is against allah to be gay....and they kill them for being homosexual

It doesn't matter, because again NO religion has any legal standing. Not the Jewish religion, or Muslims, or Christians, or Hindus... None of their beliefs hold any water in a court of law.

this means that obama is not supporting gay marriage because if he does...then it will cost him votes from these two democrat groups.

..a form of discrimination sanctioned by obama himself....for votes. yes ?

It will only cost him the votes of those who find this issue to be the most important. In general, "values voters" tend to swing right. I'm avidly pro-marriage equality, so I disagree with Obama on this, but he by FAR is the lesser of two evils when it comes to this topic, ergo, he will still get my vote.

Thanks Sarah! Right! Maybe the LGBT community should create their own Spring celebration holiday right on top of Easter. This would be in line with the Christian group that is trying to promote JesusWeen on top of Halloween. What's next?!

Keck,

Answer my questions...

So please, explain to me how two people entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's freedom of religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

sara, if you are belonging to a religion that thinks eating beef is a sin against god. and you are forbidden from it

.....then the govt forces you to eat beef, or else get charged with a hate crime or something.

is this fair ?

Again, who is forcing you or a religion to do something? Your question is only on point, if you can answer that.

if you are belonging to a religion that thinks eating beef is a sin against god. and you are forbidden from it

.....then the govt forces you to eat beef, or else get charged with a hate crime or something.

False analogy. The government isn't forcing you to "eat beef" they are just making it legal for people to "eat beef" if they so choose. If you refuse to serve someone in a restaurant that has beef, based upon a trait of the customer, then you can be in trouble. But only in a restaurant open to the public and typically sells "beef" to everyone.

See the difference.

good for you sara.

.....but i still think it's okay to protect the rights of believers....no matter what god they pray to. the protections for this were made into the constitution.

so what if some chrsitian democrats think homosexuality is against their beliefs....according to you what they believe does not matter, yes ? ...so you are kind of discriminating against what they believe. i mean i know you wont like this...but it is what it is.

Keck,

Yeah, what ENG, said! He articulated it way better than I did.

so what if some chrsitian democrats think homosexuality is against their beliefs....according to you what they believe does not matter, yes ? ...so you are kind of discriminating against what they believe. i mean i know you wont like this...but it is what it is.

What they believe doesn't matter in regards to our laws. No one is saying it can't, shouldn't or doesn't matter in their hearts. They are welcome to believe whatever they like and to practice those beliefs however they like. Until, those beliefs are used to govern the lives of those OUTSIDE of their religion. If I were saying they couldn't be Democrats and still believe in their religions, THEN I would be discriminating against them.

Please quote where I have said that.

Sara, normally it's the other way around :)

Keck, my issue with your issue is that you are making a feeble attempt to polarize this issue into a no win for the president by singling out deomcrats, blacks, and religious people against gay marriage. Your plot is showing, and you're doing a really bad job following through with it.

Support of gays, or lack thereof, has nothing with political affiliation, or skin color, and even in most cases religious affiliation. I know of catholics who support gay rights. You are attempting to generalize everyone into these broad categories, and then paint that against political affiliation.

The republican party is notoriously Christian, and notoriously uses their religious views to legislate. For references, please see Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, and Mitt Romney. They are among the many who are pushing their religion into politics. That is earning them scrutiny from democrats. You speak about the supporters of the democratic party, not the actions of the people who are making laws from the democratic party.

okay sara...lets try this....

...the govt is forcing them (christians/islam/jews) to recognize, what they have been told, is a sin against their god.

forcing them in fact to "accept" what they have written in their holy book, a terrible sin, to embrace....what they are told to avoid at all costs...

you just violated their freedom of religion if you forced them, yes ?

tell me sara, have you ever been to catholic church ?....or black church ?

Kexk,

Keck Said:

.....but i still think it's okay to protect the rights of believers....no matter what god they pray to. the protections for this were made into the constitution.

My religion says that I am to believe in gay rights, take money from the wealthy, and return it into our financial system, and to legalize drugs. How does that work out in your system?

Keck,

...the govt is forcing them (christians/islam/jews) to recognize, what they have been told, is a sin against their god.

Fail. They can still believe that gay people are sinners, abominations, going to hell, yada, yada, yada. They can preach that in their churches, highlight it in their Bibles, and spew it outside of court houses when gay couples go in to get married. They don't even have to aknowledge the marriage, only the state does, so that it can apply the same benefits upon gay couples as it does upon straight couples.

Please, show me anything legal or put out by the government that contradicts that.

tell me sara, have you ever been to catholic church ?....or black church ?

Both, actually. This will be a shocker. I was a Catholic School girl. In Detroit.

forcing them in fact to "accept" what they have written in their holy book, a terrible sin, to embrace....what they are told to avoid at all costs...

Here are some other "mortal sins" that our government allows to happen:

1) Adultery. You can't get in trouble for it legally.

2) Blasphemy. Our 1st Amendment SPECIFICALLY protects this.

3) Divorce. Again, accepted and assisted by the gov.

4) Fornication, gluttony, pornography and masturbation. All either implicitly allowed, or even explicitly protected.

A religious person doesn't have to engage in any of these. But stopping others from it isn't the role of the government, and doesn't impact a religious person's rights ( a divorce proceeding doesn't require you to "accept" it, but you cannot refuse to serve a fornicator in commercial activity because they fornicate).

Keck,

Don't forget Red Lobster and shellfish eating!!! According to Leviticus, where God calls homosexuality an abomination, he also claims that shellfish are too.

I'm still waiting for the protesters outside of Red Lobster, with their "God Hates Scallops" signs.

chris, i know democrats that are against abortion. so what ?

...my point is simple, obama is trying to portray this issue as "republican christians are the ones holding up gay marriage"

...but thats a lie. democrat christians...blacks and catholics wont go for it, and obama knows this....if he campaigns on it, then he loses these crucial votes to the republican.

my point of pointing out democrats convenient "forgetfulness" on this matter is valid. gay marriage does not pass muster with chrstian democrats.....if it did, it would not be an issue inside the democratic party as it is today.

like i say....if this was just an issue with republican christians....obama would not have a problem "coming out" in support of gay marriage. but this is an issue right at the heart of christian democrats.....a battle for the soul of the christians in the democrat party.

i wont let democrats forget this thing is about them....and them only.

Sarah,

You need to read Jon Meacham's book, "American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation." Your opinions aren't based on the real facts. I thought along the same lines as you state in these posts - but reading this book has helped me understand what the founding fathers really had envisioned for this nation - much different than I thought or you imply.

______________

Taken from Amazon.com:

At a time when our country seems divided by extremism, American Gospel draws on the past to offer a new perspective. Meacham re-creates the fascinating history of a nation grappling with religion and politics–from John Winthrop’s “city on a hill” sermon to Thomas Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence; from the Revolution to the Civil War; from a proposed nineteenth-century Christian Amendment to the Constitution to Martin Luther King, Jr.’s call for civil rights; from George Washington to Ronald Reagan.

Debates about religion and politics are often more divisive than illuminating. Secularists point to a “wall of separation between church and state,” while many conservatives act as though the Founding Fathers were apostles in knee britches. As Meacham shows in this brisk narrative, neither extreme has it right. At the heart of the American experiment lies the God of what Benjamin Franklin called “public religion,” a God who invests all human beings with inalienable rights while protecting private religion from government interference. It is a great American balancing act, and it has served us well.

Holub, yup, square pegs will never fit into round holes..hehehe

keck, some stats for you:

57% of dems support gay marriage, 51% of independents do, and 23% of republicans do.

Nobody is saying that there are not elements within the democratic party which oppose gay marriage, but on the whole, republicans are the main reason legislation has not moved forward in support of gay rights.

Source:

http://www.people-press.org/2011/03/03/section-3-attitudes-toward-social-issues/

Maga,

I do like Meachem and I'll look into it. However, one opinion of one historian probably won't make me change my mind. Especially when confronted with direct quotes, such as those I listed above.

I'm sure religion was an intrigal part of many of their lives, but that doesn't change the fact that we are a secular nation.

43 posts to get to your simple point. Oh boy...

You still seem to be basing this logic on lies about the number of those in the Catholic Church who oppose gay marriage. I'll bet your numbers on Blacks are similarly flawed. It really sounds like you are moreover trying to force a wedge that does not exist.

sara, what do you have against lobsters ?

....do you think muslims and jews should be forced to eat pork ?

something i hadnt realized until today is just how far people will reach to justify their side of the argument. obama knows he cant alienate christians with forcing gay marriage....so he gets biden and a gay cabinet member to advocate for him. this does two things. 1) it tells the christian democrats that he wont force the gay agenda on them...yet. 2) it tells the gays that he is thinking about it...but not until after the election. .....brilliant politician.

...look sara, i know you think i am a hater for pointing out the particulars of the situation....but it's an election year, and i call shenanagins on this issue, and the way obama got his underlings to dish out the message...so he wont suffer politically. personally i agree with laura bush on gay marriage....it should be made legal, just get it over with.(i am sure george w feels the same way)

Who is pushing Ammendment One in North Carolina right now, Keck?

....do you think muslims and jews should be forced to eat pork ?

No, just like I don't think christians should be forced to marry someone of the same gender.

What you have been saying is that since jews and muslims think eating pork is a sin, pork should be outlawed everywhere.

Keck,

What specifically is forced upon anyone if two people are allowed to be married?? FYI, they are already doing it. And FYI, being married does not stop these same people from doing whatever they want. They don't miraculously stop loving each other just because the state would not acknowledge it either. So what's your real agenda?

Keck,

Do you think no one should be allowed to eat pork, since some of us don't want to?

And you still haven't answered how two consenting, adults with informed capacity under the law, entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's right to their religion.

Simply reasking or restating the same thing, doesn't make your case, you know.

And I don't have anything against lobster, just hypocrisy.

what is the question Sarah ?

...and i think my point about christian democrats being so homophobic that even obama does not want to anger them speaks volumes about the "all republican christians are anti-gay homophobes" propaganda from the left.

just another 'fake' wedge issue that i am pointing out....like the "war on women" that you guys crow about...war on women...oh well, i guess we should let that go on as well , huh ? lol

Sarah stated her question very clearly.

Do you think no one should be allowed to eat pork, since some of us don't want to?

Keck,

The question is the same one, you've been repeatedly asked, by every single one of us...

How two consenting, adults with informed capacity under the law, entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's right to their religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

Seeing as they can still believe that gay people are sinners, abominations, going to hell, yada, yada, yada. They can preach that in their churches, highlight it in their Bibles, and spew it outside of court houses when gay couples go in to get married. They don't even have to aknowledge the marriage, only the state does, so that it can apply the same benefits upon gay couples as it does upon straight couples.

Please, show me anything legal or put out by the government that contradicts that.

Outside of your ridiculous generalizations about ALL black Christians and ALL Catholics, which you haven't provided any sources or citations to back up, do you have anything to support your position?

And, please, name me a left leaning legislator who is introducing any of the following...

Constitutional Amendments pertaining to the definition of marriage.

Personhood Amendments.

Anything related to vaginal probing.

Cutting assistance to programs that are utilized mainly by women.

Limiting funding to Planned Parenthood.

Narrowing the definition of rape.

Opposed to the Violence Against Women Act.

you want me to answer why christians think gay is a 'sin'.

....all i can tell you is they read the bible

you want me to tell you why christians think abortion is a sin ?

...again, you will have to ask one personally

on a personal level i think it's great obama is too chicken to say that he supports gay marriage....because he will loose votes from the christian democrats.

hypocrite ? ...yeah, i think so

now...for all those other questions about vag probes....rape...and violence. i have to ask....why would anyone be FOR rape , sarah ? (you think there are some "pro- rape " republicans out there ? )

...please list the "pro-rape" lobby sarah. lol...is it headed up by a kennedy ?

Keck,

you want me to answer why christians think gay is a 'sin'.

No, if I wanted to ask you that, I would have said, "Why do Christians think gay is a sin". Please quote me where I asked that.

you want me to tell you why christians think abortion is a sin ?

No, if I wanted to ask you that, I would have said, "Why do Christians think abortion is a sin". Please quote me where I asked that.

...please list the "pro-rape" lobby sarah. lol...is it headed up by a kennedy ?

Sure...

Since 1976, the use of government money -- from agencies such as Medicare, Medicaid, the military, the Peace Corps or the Indian Health Services -- to subsidize abortions has been limited by federal laws. These laws have typically included exemptions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest or in cases where the life of the mother is at risk. The "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act," which was introduced last week in the House with 173 co-sponsors will ostensibly eliminate the need for numerous annual abortion-funding prohibitions and ensure that no federal agency falls out of the restriction's purview. Another section of the bill, however, would re-write the rape and incest provision. Going forward, if H.R. 3 becomes law, only incest victims younger than 18 could receive taxpayer funding for an abortion. Similarly, the longstanding exemption for victims of rape would be altered to only apply to cases of "forcible rape."

What is forcible rape? The short answer is, it is nothing. As Nick Baumann of Mother Jones notes, the phrase does not exist in the federal criminal code. Nor is it possible to divine any explicit legislative intent here, as the provision contains no definition of the strange term. The authors are drafting based on pure imagination. One cannot know now how precisely such a restriction could be interpreted and implemented. In some states, where no distinction for instances of forcible or violent rape exist, it is feasible that the "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act" would deny federal funds to all rape victims.

http://www.examiner.com/article/redefining-rape-h-r-3-seems-to-do-just-that

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/29/house-republicans-aim-to-redefine-rape-to-limit-abortion-coverage/

Now, can you please, ACTUALLY, answer my questions...

How two consenting, adults with informed capacity under the law, entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's right to their religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

And don't forget these...

And, please, name me a left leaning legislator who is introducing any of the following...

Constitutional Amendments pertaining to the definition of marriage.

Personhood Amendments.

Anything related to vaginal probing.

Cutting assistance to programs that are utilized mainly by women.

Limiting funding to Planned Parenthood.

Narrowing the definition of rape.

Opposed to the Violence Against Women Act.

i dont know why jesus christ told his followers homosexuality is a sin.

...sorry but like i said...you will have to ask jesus why he dont like homosexuality.

(i cant answer the rest sarah...i am not pro rape nor do i have a war on women)

sorry.

i dont know why jesus christ told his followers homosexuality is a sin.

Dude, again, where did I ask you that??? Go re-read, and see if you can comprehend the second time through.

i cant answer the rest sarah...

At least you finally admitted it.

Sarah - If religion doesn't belong in our legal system, then why are murder & stealing crimes? If you don't want to buy into the Christian belief that committing homosexual acts is wrong, then why is murder & stealing? (And the Bible doesn't say that BEING a homosexual is a sin - but homosexual ACTS are a sin).

well, i'm not pro-rape....you are going to have to ask someone who is.

Let me throw a big old stone in this puddle. God (a.k.a. Jesus) created humans in his image to have a relationship between God and mankind - mankind messed that up - but prior to the big 'mess up' God told them to 'go forth and multiply' - so they did - and they haven't stopped.
Homosexuality does not allow for pro-creation so it goes against what some Christians believe is one of the basic tenants for God's creation - to reproduce. Now, having said that (everybody put your stones down) - I don't believe God wants us to hate or make life miserable for homosexuals...I think people use that first part of my post as a way to justify hate and mistreatment. And that is wrong.
Should they be allowed to marry? I struggle with that - I really do - I see both sides of the issue. I have to say I don't understand the whole issue of cause/effect/genetics/etc. so I choose to error on the side of love - and say they should be, again, treated with respect and allowed to have, at the least, the same rights as married couples.....maybe even marriage (I haven't come that far yet - but I'm open to a decent, civil conversation.)

I truly do not mean to offend anyone - just wanted to give an opinion as to why some Christians might find the whole thing 'offensive'.

If religion doesn't belong in our legal system, then why are murder & stealing crimes

Because they have adverse effects on society and infringe on other's rights. If our legal system IS based on religion why AREN'T adultery and shellfish illegal and why IS slavery and beating your wife?

Maga,

I truly do not mean to offend anyone - just wanted to give an opinion as to why some Christians might find the whole thing 'offensive'.

This is why this argument gets really frustrating... No one's asking them NOT to be offended. We're asking that gay people be allowed equal protection under our SECULAR law.

maga, I don't think that most of us would take offense at your position, because you do seem to approach it with great care. Perhaps the question should be asked of you to weigh in on. This is no baited trap, or anything like that. In the spirit of being able to write a simple law that states that two consenting adults can enter into an agreement whereby they benefit in certain ways by being legally bound into a relationship together where they mutually share property, and in general terms, life.... How would that adversely affect anyone outside of that relationship? I think everyone agrees that although being with someone of the same sex may not be for them because of religious beliefs, or any other belief, but what is the detriment to society?

wryview, how is murder both a crime and a punishment for a crime? Does this not seem a little two faced? How can one say, thou shalt not kill, and then turn around and say the following on how to deal with children....

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

keck,

."..sorry but like i said...you will have to ask jesus why he dont like homosexuality."

I'm sorry to disappoint you but Jesus Christ did not say one word about homosexuality. I know because I have read all four Gospels as well as the rest of the New Testament. The only thing in the New Testament that can even come close to a condemnation of homosexuality is in the writings of the apostle Paul (specifically in the book of Romans), but I should not have to point out to you that Paul was not Jesus Christ even if he did claim to speak in his (Jesus') name. If you are under the impression that Jesus said something against homosexuality, please be so kind as to provide the book, chapter, and verse where he says that.

ChrisfromCincy - The point was made that religion didn't belong in our LEGAL system - so I asked the question about murder & stealing which is ILLEGAL in our country -but has its basis in the Ten Commandments.

Capital punishment is NOT murder. It is killing, but not murder. There is a difference. So, it is NOT two-faced.

What you quoted is not currently in our law is it? That goes to a whole different question. Maybe we'd have better behaved children if that was the law (just kidding...sort of).

Wry,

You didn't answer my question...

If religion doesn't belong in our legal system, then why are murder & stealing crimes

Because they have adverse effects on society and infringe on other's rights. If our legal system IS based on religion why AREN'T adultery and shellfish illegal and why IS slavery and beating your wife?

The point was made that religion didn't belong in our LEGAL system - so I asked the question about murder & stealing which is ILLEGAL in our country -but has its basis in the Ten Commandments.

Prohibitions on murder and theft predate Christianity, and for that matter Judaism.

Capital punishment is NOT murder. It is killing, but not murder.

Commandment 6: Thou shall not KILL murder

No, YOU are in for a rude awakening. CONSERVATIVES win control of both houses and Obama goes down in flames. BTW, you have no idea what the Tea Party represents.

Bill-4012182

I hate the Tea Party and all its stands for, and all its candidates

And here all along I thought you homos preached a gospel of love and tolerance. I guess in only works when it benefits you an and one else, right?

yeah, uh....all black churches are against homosexuality.

...funny i did not know they were "tea party" though.

and those pesky catholics first they were against abortion....and now they are anti-gay.

....by the way both of these groups are 99% democrat bill

Keck, I have no idea where you get your "facts" but you'd better search somewhere else because your sources are bad. While the vast majority of African-Americans are Democrats, Catholics are more evenly split like the rest of the country. As far as support for gay marriage, a recent poll by Pew showed that Catholics support same-sex marriage by 52-37%. That's a pretty significant margin of support so for you to say that Catholics are anti-gay is factually wrong at best. And all black churches are against homosexuality? Also not true. You should read up a bit more on the issues before making such ignorant comments.

You can believe the lie if you want and be damned but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord GOD allmighty.

sorry, black churches and catholics dont like homosexuality....even obamas spiritual adviser , reverend wright, calls homosexuality a deadly sin.

it's just not accepted. but it is funny to see certain democrats be so anti-gay.

You can believe the lie if you want and be damned but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord GOD allmighty.

That is entirely your right. However, making it illegal for gay people to marry anywhere goes WAY beyond "your house" and imposes your beliefs on others. In contrast, allowing gays to marry does not force you to be in a gay marriage, attend a gay marriage, agree with gay marriage, or be affected by it in any way.

In reference to your tea party statement. I've always been amazed at how supposedly intelligent people can be manipulated. After seeing and hearing the tea party activists talking about socialism, communism, and marxism, I did a little research only to find that the "tea party" is being led and funded by two anti-government billionaire brothers by the name of Koch. Their father was an advisor to the "John Birch Society" which fought against the civil rights movement. They've sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran AND they've had 5 criminal convictions since 1999 in the U.S. and Canada.

Julie,

Here, here! I always find it humerous, when the Tea Party people start preaching about how they stand for smaller government and fiscal responsiblity, while trying to legislate what goes on within our bedrooms, relationships, and bodies.

Smaller government doesn't equal less taxes, that's poorly funded government. Smaller government means things like not stopping two consenting adults with informed legal capacity under the law from entering into contractual property agreements, because some people think it's "yucky".

gee sara....sounds like obamacare to me.

...of course i am not a woman...but i sure as hell dont want the govt telling me what i can and cant do with my body......but obamacare does tell you what you can and cant do with your body......obamacare brings the govt into your homes....and you love obamacare ?

i thought you wanted the govt out of your body.

No, Obamacare mandates how we all PAY for our medical care, not what medical tests or treatments we receive. My method of payment, has nothing to do with what goes on between my doctor and I. Please quote from the ACA, where I am mandated to have some sort of treatment or test? You know, like probes stuck up our vaginas.

well, it also tells you what procedure you can and cant have.

...your medical history is given to the irs (i dont like the idea of the irs knowing my medical history...do you ?)

i think your right....tell the govt to stay out of my body. its not theirs...its mine.

probes included.

Sarah,

What's sad is that I know people who vote based on the nominee's position on abortion. Well, when Bush was president and they had republicans in the White House, why didn't they ban abortion? Of course, these are the same people that take advantage of student loans and family medical leave act which they have because of the Democrats. Gay marriage is in our future, all citizens of the United States should be treated equally. Most companies offer same sex insurance and offer FMLA if they want to adopt a child or take off work if a partner is ill. Since I am not gay, I am not offered this unless I'm married. Is this reverse discrimination? Lol people don't know what they want. If they allow gay marriage, then they won't have to worry so much about contraceptives and abortion! By the way, I know of quite a few "normal" couples that are really "yucky".

well, it also tells you what procedure you can and cant have

Where does it say that? Or does it say how different procedures will be paid for and classified. Please show me, in a quote, where it says I have to see a doctor, or have a test, or undertake a treatment.

It does not such thing Keck. That's a pure lie. The IRS is merely the payment enforcement method.

You're supporting the side that wants to invade womens bodies in the same manner that you want yours left alone. Which is it?? Or are you saying that only men have the right to not have the government invade their bodies?

BTW, you have no idea what the Tea Party represents.

From what I can tell, it represents suppression of women and state-sponsored rape. At least, that's what tea party candidates advocate once they're elected on a platform of more jobs.

Great question. The fact is, this has nothing to do with education...its just Nutzo Folks wanting everyone else as nutzo as they obviously have become...

So, he's not entitled to have an opinion on anything not connected with his job?

If you actually watched the show, you would know that it started with Joe Biden making a comment that he was okay with gay marriage, although the Obama Administration hasn't claimed the same yet and were trying to walk back Biden's comment.

Since the Sec of Ed, is also a cabinet mamber, Halperin asked him to see what the response of the Administration would be. Whether or not they would keep walking these comments back, or if they were getting ready to change their stance.

It doesn't matter. In fact, in view of the disgusting and disgraceful state of Public Education in this country, Arne Duncan's opinion on ANYTHING is about as important as the Village Idiots' (Joe Biden) opinion on dirt. How anyone could take anything these 2 clowns say seriously is beyond all reason.

wryview,

Why does anyone's opinion about anything matter? Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one, including you and me.

Our public education is in a disgraceful state because it is locally controlled and subject to school board politics. How can we expect to be world leaders in technology and medicine when local school boards mandate the teaching of "creationism" and states like TN are passing "don't say gay" legislation? We need strong, federal standards. Whether our kids go to school in Kansas or New York, they should meet the same high standards.

Barry - How did we become the leader in technology in the 50's & 60's when the Bible was read in school? Federal standards are what is holding us back. We were FIRST in the world until the Department of Education gained a cabinet seat. It has been downhill ever since.

The bible states that it is acceptable to stone your children to death if they do not obey you. What's your point? Is that any more acceptable to you?

Right on !!!

Yes, Jim, you can marry your dog and cat, just as soon as it can give legal, informed consent. But, try not to be disappointed when you discover that it is too smart to want to marry you.

What I do have a problem with is trying to convince everyone it is acceptable behavior.

Allowing gay people to marry is not convincing anyone it is acceptable behaviour. It is just affording rights to people, which is not a moral distinction, but one based upon equality and our constitution. People are allowed to feel however they like about it.

They try to train our children it is just a different lifestyle.

Oh good god. I'm sure your kids will be nice little bigots like you are, don't worry so much.

The Liberals are destrying our country by tearing apart our Morals.

Same argument was made when black people and white people were fighting for the right to marry one another. Our government's role isn't to legislate morality, but rather ensure equal protection under the law, and ensuring civil rights are provided.

If you actually watched the show, you would know that it started with Joe Biden making a comment that he was okay with gay marriage, although the Obama Administration hasn't claimed the same yet and were trying to walk back Biden's comment.

Since the Sec of Ed, is also a cabinet mamber, Halperin asked him to see what the response of the Administration would be. Whether or not they would keep walking these comments back, or if they were getting ready to change their stance.

Duncan's opinion has ZERO to do with curriculum, or what is being taught in schools.

"Duncan's opinion has ZERO to do with curriculum, or what is being taught in schools"

If you really believe that, then you are incredibly naive.

Wry,

Please prove your point. Provide a link, source, argument, or cite, for how Duncan's opinion on gay marriage is reflected in our nationwide curriculum.

All it takes is a visit to your local public school district. I see the "gay agenda" schoolwork my kids bring home. My daughter's AP US History teacher drills a liberal agenda into those kids on a daily basis. She comes home & tells us what goes on in the class. If he wasn't the only AP US Hist teacher in the school, she would not be in that class. She says he is always putting her (and several of her classmates) down for their Christian beliefs. And he isn't the only teacher who does that.

Yeah, those are actually what the rest of the world calls facts. Now, I'm not going to prove your point for you, you're making the accusation you prove it. Show me your case for the "gay agenda", complete with sources and evidence.

By the way, your personal story means and proves NOTHING.

I'll call it like I see it... Paranoia.

Holub,

"Abnormal is replacing Normal ! !"

Maybe. But what's so great about normal? It just means being like most other people. So what?

Have you considered that abnormal is completely normal, and the people have been hiding in conformity for far too long?

Actually, its not kids who are confused. It is the adults who are teaching them who are confused.

Holub, I'm about as "liberal" as you get on social issues. My 6 year old is well aware that gay marriage exists some places, that there is nothing wrong with it, and we have gay friends she knows and loves well.

Guess, what? She isn't "confused" at all. She, like most of us, have most of our sexual orientation innately determined at this point. Based upon her playing with dolls and general fascination, she will be heterosexual when she grows up. Big shock to you, but parental openness to gay rights has zero effect upon the eventual sexual orientation of the child.

They have the equal opportunity to marry someone of the opposite sex.

They do not have the equal opportunity to marry someone they romatically love which is not of the opposite sex.

That is the whole point, nothing more, nothing less.

They have the equal opportunity to marry someone of the opposite sex.

Hmm ... the best you can come up with is an argument that was used to justify racial segregation in the first half of the 20th Century? You must be so proud.

You don't like the statement? Your problem, not mine. It's true. Racial segregation has NOTHING to do with this.

It has everything to do with this question. Racial segregation was a policy that couldn't be logically justified, just as bans on same-sex marriage can't be logically justified.

What part of "legal consent" are you having problems understanding?

Really, it's not that hard of a concept.

RUFFIJ...we are going to stop tho', before we turn into Southern Canucks. However, u r right....Same Sex marriage or civil union plays very small importance in the scheme of life. Sure as hell won't contribute to the uncontrollable level of single mom birthings or the overall growth of the earths' population , will it??

Senator Santorum? Is that you???

You seem to think a lot about people marrying their pets. Maybe you should talk to someone about that.

Sainto you seem to think or not think i should say.

You seem to think a lot about people marrying their pets. Maybe you should talk to someone about that.

The right-wing is obsessed with bestiality. I fear for my dogs. I certainly wouldn't them in the same room as a conservative Republican.

No kidding ... bestiality comment after bestiality comment, even after the term "informed consent" has been explained. Do you think you're being clever, Holub?

Is that all you think about?

Thanks, Andrew

I am actually getting tired of the anti-gay rhetoric on here I notice MSNBC will ban someone immediately for racist or anti-religious statements but not for anti-gay statements.

Often I have wondered why they are so slow to respond.

They shouldn't be banned for anti-gay statements. It is a free country, and if they want to look like stupid, that's their right.

Raised on a farm... how fitting. No wonder you are so obsessed with f#cking animals.

Yes, you're quite the "thinker", Holub.

Also, I don't believe for one minute that you grew up on a farm and never witnessed two male animals getting "frisky" with each other.

Mr K-234 !

Well said !

I have a daughter who is openly gay and I tell her the same thing. This is what happens when God is removed from the heart and the home.

1) you are a bad parent. Congrats.

2) You had god in the home, and yet have a gay child. I was raised in a godless home. Neither me, or any of my siblings, are gay. Sorta blows a hole in your "logic".

Do yourself a favor, tone down the fire and brimstone, and love your kid for who she is.

God gave you a gay child for a reason. Why are you fighting against Gods will?

Good thing there are people who will love and fight for your daughter and her rights, even though her own parent won't.

Marrage is between a man and a woman. Thats the historic and wolrdwide standard.

Ummm, historically marriage has been:

1) One man plus as many women as he could support.

2) In some cultures, one woman and 3 or more men.

3) One man and one or more children.

4) One man, one woman, and the understanding that he could have as many mistresses as he wanted.

5) One man and a woman who is basically his property.

6) One man and woman, but only of the same race.

7) One man and woman, but only if they are the same cast.

8) One man and woman, but only if they are the same religion.

I think you need to rethink your "worldwide and historic" standards a bit.

I am going to use this and quote it often great post EngEsq!

I love the "traditional" marriage brigade. Marriage has changed so many times in our history yet some ignorant people think it has remained unchanged for thousands of years!

ANd from that comment its easy to see you do not deserve to call yourself a patriot.

Well, when they're directly asked a question... If he had redirected to the economy, which by the way he's the Sec. of Ed. so that wouldn't have made sense anyway, he would have been accused of dodging the question.

Well except that in this case, they're all kind of disagreeing with "The King".

I wish I could upvote this a few more times. Well said!

Lol, I'm fairly sure only us straight people receive copies of this "gay agenda" the conservatives speak of. I've never met a gay person, who's whipped a legal pad out of their briefcase, and started checking off items, "Bring depravity unto the world... Check. Corrupt innocent children... Check. Make sure John Boehner gets turned into a pillar of salt... Check. Burn at least three Bibles... Check."

And who comes up with this agenda??? Do they have a "Yearly Convention of the Gays" where elected LGBT folks get together and decide how they want to destroy morality and the world, that year? Or is it more secretive, like the Masons?

No, I think the "gay agenda" probably goes something like this...

1. Be born.

2. Get educated.

3. Get a job.

4. Get married.

5. Raise a family.

6. Retire.

7. Die fat and happy.

you would not be happy if you were forced to be around sharia islam , right sarah ?

...you dont like sharia islam....you dont agree with it on a basic level.....you would not force it on anyone, yes ?

....well, what if there was a federal law that forces you to be around sharia law....even though you did not want to be around it ?

can you understand why some people dont want the gay agenda forced on them sarah ?

i dont want to be around it....so i dont live in the gay part of town. simple. can you understand ...even just the tiniest bit ?

Keck,

You still haven't answered...

How two consenting, adults with informed capacity under the law, entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's right to their religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

And since, Sharia Law, is religious law, you're actually making my case for me. Is it okay, to have laws based on religion?

i dont want to be around it....so i dont live in the gay part of town. simple. can you understand ...even just the tiniest bit ?

I can understand that. But that's not what you're saying. If you were saying that you would have no problem with gay people being married, and you just wouldn't get gay married.

What you're saying is, you don't want to be around it, so they can't have the same rights as you. Which is unjust and illegal.

no sarah. i dont have a problem with gay marriage.....but other americans do, and i can understand why.

like i said before...i dont have a problem with gays getting married.....but some democrats , like catholics and black christians do have a problem with it.

....and my point is barak hussein obama has a problem with gay marriage too.

and you cant seem to understand that not everyone is cool with gay marriage....and yes...even democrats have a problem with gay marriage.......or obama would not have a problem with gay marriage.

so lets look at why obama has the problem with gay marriage.....and it has to do with hang ups about gays....by the god fearing folk.

Why are you back to talking about what other people think, Keck? 57% of Catholics SUPPORT gay marriage. How is that a problem to anyone but you?

no sarah. i dont have a problem with gay marriage.....but other americans do, and i can understand why.

No you can't, because the argument for "why" they have a problem with it, are the answer to those questions you refuse to answer...

How two consenting, adults with informed capacity under the law, entering into a contractual property agreement, infringes on someone's right to their religion?

How is the government forcing you to do anything?

Are they forcing you to "gay marry"?

Are they forcing your church to "gay holy matrimony" them?

Are they forcing you to attend a gay wedding, or be happy about it?

And if you admit that the answer to them is "It doesn't", "No", "No", and "No", you have to come to the conclusion that they have no LOGICAL argument to support the anti-marriage equality position.

Or, you can do what you've been trying to do, and talk in circles around them.

like i said before...i dont have a problem with gays getting married.....but some democrats , like catholics and black christians do have a problem with it.

At least you've slowed the generalizations down from ALL to SOME. I'm still waiting for sources.

and my point is barak hussein obama has a problem with gay marriage too.

Stop trying to fear monger with his middle name. Nobody gives an "f" if he has an Islamic sounding middle name. Educated, logical, sane people don't give an "f" if he's Muslim.

and you cant seem to understand that not everyone is cool with gay marriage....and yes...even democrats have a problem with gay marriage.......or obama would not have a problem with gay marriage

Where did I say it's not okay, to NOT be cool with gay marriage? Not being cool with something has nothing to do with whether you have a case for legally banning something.

so lets look at why obama has the problem with gay marriage.....and it has to do with hang ups about gays....by the god fearing folk.

Never said it didn't have to do with politics. I'm sure he's playing politician.

thanks.

you will have to ask obama why he is against gay marriage sarah.

....maybe he has a 'war on gays' ? ...because i mean your logic takes one to that place, yes ?

Keck,

....maybe he has a 'war on gays' ? ...because i mean your logic takes one to that place, yes ?

I don't know, does it? Does the opinion of one member of a political party constitute a "war"?

Here's a new question for you, since you finally admitted you couldn't answer the other ones...

How many bills has Obama, either while as a state senator, a federal senator, or as the president, introduced regarding homosexuality?

As I said above, having an opinion is fine, legislating on it is when we cross the line.

you want me to answer why obama does not support gay marriage now..

Keck your question shows a little political naivity.

He does not openly support it now simply because the small minded ignorants will use it against him during the election. He is sitting on the fence, waiting and when he is reelected and then has the power he will introduce marriage equality once and for all.

No Keck, the question I want you to answer is already posted...

How many bills has Obama, either while as a state senator, a federal senator, or as the president, introduced regarding homosexuality?

You're the one saying I should believe that Obama has a "war on gays", well show me why...

funny.

the biggest democrat opponents to gay marriage are black churches and catholics.

Please cite your source for that claim Keck....

tv

This NYTimes article would disagree with your "tv".

TV, really, that's your source??? I watched a movie about vegetarian vampires in Washington State on TV a couple weeks ago, does that mean they exist too?

cnn pbs bbc c-span abc cbs nbc

...tv

Yes, and I watched Twilight on FX. Please, a link to the specific clip, study, show, something, besides generalized stations. Wasn't Lost on NBC??? Does that mean, that it was true too?

you have a computer sarah....do you know how to 'google' ?

....it's easy...c'mon you can do it....you're liberated, yes ?

Why are you so hesitant to answer simple questions, Keck? Because that would expose how flimsy your arguments are?

Keck,

Why should I make your case for you??? You're the one claiming these things. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Prove your own point.

try ..."black churches march against gay marriage"

...i saw this on cnn last month.

again...i'm sorry for having to point this out...but it's there

Yeah, you didn't point out anything. I believe we all stated that we were sure some black Christians are opposted to marriage equality.

Your statement was that they ALL were, and ALL their members were, and that they were ALL democrats.

And again, I saw, "American Idol: The Finale" on Fox, does that mean it's credible???

...yes usually black churches are all democrat.

Black churches break with top Democrats on gay marriage

By The Charlotte Observer – April 22, 2012

Look it up. This article actually disagrees with you, and says that when voting on certain issues, they in fact do NOT agree with democrats.

I what world are you living in in which 99% of Catholics vote Democrat? That hasn't been true since the 1960's In fact Catholics are among the fastest growing groups of Republican voters and Republican Catholics outnumber Democratic ones.

And not even 99% of Black PEOPLE voted for Obama, much less Black Christians.

It is very rare you can completely generalize large swaths of people.

Well stated.

Bored,

I echo the "well stated" comment.

Procrustes,

Yes...because moral decay can be described as two people who love each other wanting to make a lasting commitment to one another in marriage. Yup...sounds like decay to me.

So, if we took your idea and made that law what would be the impact? Let's go one step further....what if it had been the law of the land before you were born. I don't know if you are a man or woman but let's pretend your a woman in this example. Now...from as far back as you can remember you've felt a connection with the opposite sex. When those funny feelings began to develop in your young adulthood you naturally gravitated toward men when it came to your sexual preferences. Because we as people don't usually have a moment where we ask ourselves..."hmmm....do I want to be attracted to men or woman" it seemed natural and right to have these feelings toward the opposite sex.

Well....unfortunately for you and your fellow heterosexual crowd the opportunity to have the same rights as those enjoyed by the dominate homosexual crowd wasn't an option. Why? Because they weren't like you...because they don't understand your sexual preferences...because they claim that their religion tells them that it's wrong and they push their beliefs on society. How upset would you be? Shunned from society because you were considered different despite the fact that your feelings felt so normal and natural and right.

People like yourself are no better than those who fought to keep blacks out of businesses or women from working. Children 30 or 40 years from now will study this time period and ask "Why would people deny this group rights...it seems so stupid". You'll be the person they're talking about....one of the stupid people....just another road block in front of the path to progress.

Now, now. I thought gays were more genteel and better educated than to resort to name calling. Guess not.

The law I facetiously proposed, if sternly enforced, would result in far fewer people in this world, for such is the fecundity of anti-natural parings. But please continue to have your recreational sex, and do label entrances and exits any way you fancy.

Children 30 or 40 years from now who study this period will learn of a strong group of people who fought to resist those champions of diversity who would lead this nation headlong into the depths of moral turpitude. That pleases me. The champions of diversity, you see, support any sort of action, practice or behavior imaginable except the diversity of opinion. Do anything but disagree with them.

This issue is being brought to the fore by a desperate, failed administration that wants to divert the attention of voters away from a dismal economy. It won't work.